June 27, 2012

An Open Letter to Late Night Alliance

Update (2018-05-31): Wow, was I salty.
I normally keep politics and other such crap off of this blog, but it seems like the best place to put this. The only other options are trying to mail nonexistent or unresponsive diplomats (which has already failed) and posting on the CAOD forums (which I refuse to do because that is a terrible place).

The purpose of this is to address the now one-week war between Damu'Khonde allliance and Late Night Alliance, why it happened, and its future (such as when it will stop). There seems to be a lot of misinformation (disinformation?) about the war, and I aim to rectify that.

What's going on?

In-militia war. Not pretty.
Long story short: for more than a month, my corp (Rifterlings), and my alliance in general (Damu'Khonde) had been having issues with being shot by militia friendlies. Every time it happened, we would see Late Night Alliance as the ones doing it. It usually happened in Amarr complexes, so I assumed my corpmates were leeching complexes and I campaigned to make them stop. A couple of them were, but most were not. The shootings, however, continued.

I tried to make diplomatic contact only to discover LNA had no real organized diplomacy, and I was unable to get any results or to make the friendly-shooting stop. I then investigated more, and found that the main culprits are the KA POW POW Inc corporation, who appear to often shoot even other friendlies, not just Damu'Khonde members. We even had an incident where KPP aggressed and killed our fleet in an asteroid belt.

The friendly-shootings were beginning to impact corp morale, and discontent was very high. After an unfortunately failed last ditch attempt to sort things out, spearheaded by Transmaritanus (who has been the most helpful and friendly member of LNA in this whole affair), Damu'Khonde declared war on LNA in order to get at KPP.

The War

This war is simple. The purpose is to rectify the fact that we were getting shot by friendlies. We are now getting shot by flashy reds. We can deal with that.

The purpose of the war is not to sabotage the militia, or to antagonize or vilify LNA as a whole.

Since Damu'Khonde is the aggressor in this war, we can choose when to end the war. The 70 mil ISK per week is not a problem, so we can keep this going forever if it must. However, since in-militia wars suck and an united front is better to attack the Amarr with, we are willing to end it immediately upon one of the following two very easy things happening. Either:

A. KA POW POW Inc is booted from Late Night Alliance, as we will stop holding the whole alliance responsible for the crimes of one corp. Since the start of the war, I have learned that KPP is intricately involved in LNA leadership, so this is unlikely to happen. This leaves the only option being:

B. Late Night Alliance as a whole makes an official and public dedication to stop firing upon militia friendlies without warning or real cause. Simple as that. Allies need to depend on each other to not shoot each other, or they're not allies.

You silly Rifter pilots, you're losing the war.

I am well aware of our performance in the war, and that we are not winning the proverbial ISK war, nor the ship count war. However, guess how many of us have been killed by friendlies since the wardec? None.

That means I can gladly say "objective accomplished".

What is the future of the war if no resolution is reached?

It will continue unabated. In fact, the pressure will only be upped as we learn to deal with LNA better.

There is going to be another source of pressure, though: the Ushra'Khan alliance.

There have been rumors flying around about Ushra'Khan planning to join the militias' efforts against the Amarr, and I can confirm that they are true. I can also confirm that Damu'Khonde will be merging its membership into Ushra'Khan, and we will be continuing Damu'Khonde's current operation -- including the war with LNA.

Update: I ought to clarify. The D'K-U'K merger has nothing to do with this war, and this is not us calling on "big brother" as speculated upon in the comments.

"The ball is in your court"

I have gotten this message about the war second or third hand from LNA leadership, and it is what encouraged me to write this. The cause of the war has not changed, so the war will continue.

"Unfortunately for some, just being in militia does not make you blue to us."

Damu'Khonde also operates NBSI, but we do not shoot Minmatar militia members without warning or cause. Our members are instructed to treat all allies with respect. In case of complex LP-leeching, they are instructed to politely ask the offender to leave and give ample time and warning for them to do so before taking drastic measures like opening fire.

Yes, alliance members and corp members take priority over militia allies. Yes, an alliance needs to defend itself as an unit against all threats; I will never condemn the fact that, despite being blameless in the war and having good relations with D'K, AUTOZ is standing beside their alliance-mates.

However, joining a militia has an implied step of accepting a whole cohort of new allies. For those allies to stay allies, you need to treat them as such. That involves not shooting them on a whim

The bottom line

Most of LNA as I know them are cool people and very good pilots. I have flown with many of them in the past, and have had good times and good fights. It's a shame to be at war, and I do not want to be at war with most of them. I get the same feeling from multiple LNA members I have talked to. They are unhappy about the war, and agree that shooting friendlies is not fine and that KPP is problematic in general.

I would urge these members to speak up to their leadership and to try to get this resolved. It is via internal pressure from its membership that an alliance changes anything, especially when it is not your own corp that is the problem. I myself have been part of an alliance with a similar "apple" as part of its basket in the past. They were some of the best pilots in the alliance, but were a giant pain to deal with. After numerous diplomatic incidents and friction with other alliance members, the only way it changed was by enormous pressure from the rank and file of the other corps who were unhappy with the situation.

Alternatively, if nothing changes, I would like to remind everyone that there are tons of other good corps and alliances in the Minmatar militia that are recruiting.

Update: A Resolution

As of today, the war is ending. Feanos of Ushra'Khan did what I could not, and negotiated peace while getting LNA to agree to our terms: not firing upon militia friendlies without warning or real cause. That means:

  • If we enter a plex with an LNA member there we will be asked to leave before being shot, not be shot without warning.
  • If we are near a wreck that an LNA member wants to loot, we will not be shot on sight.
  • Most importantly there are now diplomatic channels to deal with disagreements between members, so we do not have to resort to war again.
I believe this is peace in our time. 

Nah, who am I kidding. We have Amarr to kill. Let's get at it!


  1. Cool story bro

    Sincerly Ka Pow Pow pilot

    1. Man up, stop hiding behind an 'Anonymous' tag if is a work of fiction.

    2. That was PunchBug2142

  2. I think Muskells put it best. When Hans posed the question of whether you guys were more valuable to us as allies or as targets, Musky responded that you simply aren't valuable... at all.

    We've got "allies" coming out the wazoo, and I really can't bring myself to care about a few extra scrubs in rifters on either side of the equation.

    1. Damu'Khonde can be discarded as a largely inconsequential bunch of frigate pilots, understandable. Ushra'Khan, not quite. We'll see, I suppose.

    2. http://rifterlings.com/kb/index.php/kill_detail/1149/

      This kill brought to you by inconsequential frigate pilots.

    3. Yeah and you had to call in the big kids to actually kill him. Also I stole the loot.

  3. Kapowpow member silence i killyou created and funded the allaince himself.
    So goodluck getting them booted.

    U guys constantly warping and whoring our LP inst cool.
    Us milita vets made milita what it is today and if we have to we will all join this war and eject u guys from the warzone if it comes to it.

    Alot of hard work comes from Oxide and Late Night and for u little shits to come and try kick our sandcastle over isnt going to happen..

    Also u guys trying to run to big daddy alliance Ushra'Khan will really just break U'K even more then they already are broken.

    1. http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=3294206

      As someone who used to FC in FW 4 years ago during the days of the 80-man RRBS slugouts, I can say that you're right, FW has been made what it is today by the work of militia vets.

      So when guys like Petrus and I who have been flying in or with the Minmatar FW for YEARS see a bunch of guys who've been with the militia for a few months backstabbing their allies for lols and ISK, we don't take kindly to it.

      Just because you don't know the history of FW and Ushra'Khan doesn't mean you're the most important part of it. No more than closing your eyes makes you the only person in the room.

    2. I have recently become aware of KPP's contribution to LNA, and as I indicated, I understand them getting booted is unlikely.

      D'K does not whore LP, and we are not trying to kick over anyone's sandcastle.

      The merge with U'K is completely unrelated to the war. They just happen to agree with the motives of the war, and are willing to stand by their allies.

      Your posturing is unasked for and frankly just sounds hollow, "Anonymous".

    3. Your sandcastle?

      Sov space is just four jumps away from Kourmonen. Go take it if you want to play with sandcastles.

    4. "So when guys like Petrus and I who have been flying in or with the Minmatar FW for YEARS see a bunch of guys who've been with the militia for a few months backstabbing their allies for lols and ISK, we don't take kindly to it."

      Kapow have been in milita for 4+years. They used to fly under IFW before Kapow was created.

    5. The new guys in Ushra'Khan are looking forward to losing many ships in faction war. We'd prefer to lose them alongside you, not to you.

    6. You wardecced us mate. Up to you ho wlong the war goes for.

  4. That Punisher/Enyo GuyJune 27, 2012 at 8:24 AM

    Why can't you guys just say fuck it and attack Provi?

    1. Raids against Providence are a certainty, but U'K is not interested in a full 0.0 deployment or sov war at this time.

    2. That Guy, Again.June 27, 2012 at 8:48 AM

      Is it possible to kick the hornet's nest, as it were, to make them consider it?

    3. I'm not sure how much of the internal politics of the decision to move to lowsec can be made public, so I cannot comment on that.

  5. If your nuetral your a target.
    If your an alt of a blue and havn't let people know, your a target.
    If you whore LP which there are many that do... your a target. If you want LP.. spend 30 mins in the plex like the rest of us.. not the last 2 mins.
    If you warp to us after we have been in a fight and start looting wrecks, Your fucked.
    If you shoot at any of us because your a noob who cant set up your overview to see blue before flashy. Or you unfortunately had an overview glitch.. cough cough.. bullshit... chough... Then you are gonna die in the face with boiling oil and a cucummber..... fire too.

    Kpp doesn't shoot blues or militia unless needed.. above reasons give need.
    Any problems you have with us killing any of your members.. you can be 99% sure that it was a result of one of the above mention things happening.
    The other 1% accounts for me alone. There is a slight chance that I will kill you regardless of who you are simply because I'm moody and hate you all.
    Learn the rules and follow them... Problem solved.
    Or just FO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Also.. Diplomats?? WTF FOR??? ITs faction warfare ffs. No one gives a shit about anything but making LP/isk and killing stuff. People speaking for others and telling others what to do is utter garbage. I pay my subscription... I say what I do.

    Guess that is all.. oh wait hang on........ guess what?

    1. It would be fine if it were as you say. Unfortunately, it is not. Our experience has been:

      If you're on the field with KPP (be it a plex, belt, or anywhere else), you are liable to get shot without warning.

      We have been shot on gates. We have been shot in plexes within a couple seconds of warping in (due to trying to bait WTs in, not leech your hard AFK-earned LP). We have been shot in asteroid belts after killing war targets there. We simply got to the point where being on the field with LNA meant getting shot... so I just made it official.

      Diplomats are for civilized discussion between even-headed people using proper English in order to resolve issues without braindead sperging.

    2. Yes that means,
      You were shot on gates because you looted wrecks that you weren't entitled too. or you shot at us for being flashy.
      You were shot in plexes within a couple seconds because some of your members leeched our apparent AFK lp making in other plexes. The fact that you beleive everyone afk plexes shows awareness of an opportunity to leech.
      You were shot in an asteroid belt because you again shot at us for being flashy.
      Look we can throw words back and forth endlessly but because you guys are so but hurt over this you are of course going to ignore the facts and go straight to riducule. We on the other hand know who we shoot and why we shoot them. You may not think so but we do have guidelines and internally we make sure we follow them. So of course we will defend ourselves when shit like this comes up.

      If the same small group of people seem to be having the same issue with us over and over, yet the rest of the entire milita does not.. its a pretty good indication that the people with the problem are causing it.

    3. We do not shoot militia people with low sec status, as evidenced by us not having problems with other militia groups. We do not steal from wrecks belonging to allies. We do not leech plexes and in fact have corp policy against it.

      If we did any of those things, I would understand getting shot. We have, however, been getting shot for *perceived intent* of doing one of the above things. That is equivalent to "you're walking by my house, and I think you want to rob me, so I'm just going to kill you pre-emptively so you won't". It's not okay.

      It was not just us having problems getting shot by LNA. If you check this forum thread, you will see that other alliances like -EM- and SWIFT have also nodded to this being a problem: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=124015

      Regardless, if you check the update at the end of the post, you will see the war has ended diplomatically, with the requested terms fulfilled. It is okay to defend your stuff, but not by preemptively shooting allies. Let's focus those guns on the Amarr.

    4. The fact that LNA has to lie about events shows that they know they're wrong. They're not lying for their own sake or even the sake of Rifterlings - they're lying for the sake of the Minmatar militia in general. LNA by now probably has a clue that the Minmatar militia generaly dislikes them, and if unequivocal truth of LNA's guilt were to come out, their time in the militia would be over.

      As it stands, LNA's time in the militia is not over - but it certainly is counting down fast. My corporation, which has also had problems with these people, have been instructed to screenshot every incidence, including threats and yellowboxing, that occurs with LNA. We have cooperation from another alliance that they will do the same. These screens will eventually be made public when the alliance and our corp wardec LNA.

    5. While I understand the displeasure you're experiencing, I would advise you to exhaust all available diplomatic channels before wardeccing. Militia shooting each other is unfortunate.

  6. Also that was Shoog.. Stupid blog

  7. I thought everyone knew that LNA was basically a pirate alliance hiding in the FW?

  8. @Anonymous who seems to speak for LNA/KPP please take a look at this offer:


  9. If you want Ka POW POW to stop shooting you, I will ask then nicely. But don't go tooting your horn about how critical you are to the war effort while disrespecting Ka POW POW--that kind of talk caused myself and Jade Constantine some time back to nearly come to blows. Instead, do as Jade did (props to Jade for this) and swallow your pride, join Late Nite gangs and contribute. If the Star Fraction/IFW conflict was resolved equitably, so can this Damu'Khonde/Ka.POW POW conflict.

    HUANG pilots are not pirates. Nonetheless I consider Late Nite and in particular Ka POW POW pilots to be among the most skilled and fearless warrior capsuleers in New Eden, and I will stand by them as a matter of honor and loyalty.

    They are, however, pirates. But they are OUR pirates. They are also completely irreverent, lawless freebooters who require other pilots to earn their respect. To me, that's the epitome (at least a valid interpretation) of the Minmatar way, as adopted by many free capsuleers.

    If, like Jade, you earn their respect, they won't shoot you. War is messy, and we have ruthless killers on our side. If you don't cross them, they won't target you. And if you just become that much more flexible and accept that the Militia is home to all types, and accept LNA for what it is, then fleet up with them as we do and earn their respect instead of demanding it, which only earns their scorn.

  10. This comment has been removed by the author.

  11. There seens to be a point where a group of 'elite PVP' FW members get too cocky for their own good and start to think they run the show. Then you get behavior and conflicts like this. The exact same thing happened between KotMC and Locus Industries, and eventually the rest of the Amarr militia became fed-up with Locus's attitude and joined against them. They left, and KotMC stayed. It is the natural order of things.

    Personally I'd rather fight U'K than Late Night. Lately they've gotten the reputation of being all around pains-in-the-ass, both to be allied with and to be against. I welcome the fresh blood.

  12. You keep politics out of the blog and then give people politics. Okay.

    LNA will wipe their asses with you and UK. Bring it baby!

    1. "I normally keep politics and other such crap off of this blog, but it seems like the best place to put this."

      Do you have a better suggestion for someplace to put an open letter to a whole alliance?

  13. Well, I offered to try and convince Ka POW POW to stand down. At least one Rifterling pilot basically gave me the finger, so offer withdrawn.

    1. If you think my response was "giving you the finger", then I seriously doubt your conflict resolution skills.

  14. @Anony Mouse Trolling is quite useless if you are just going to post anonymously. Perhaps posting with your main... ? How about a Thunderdome with Rifters - 5v5 or 10v10? Winner gets bragging rights and we can move beyond the petty BS?

  15. Shooting blue is the only way to go.

    Good read.

  16. The entire politically oriented blog post, now useless jabber!

    Damu'Khonde has offered a surrender
    From: CONCORD
    Sent: 2012.06.28 03:33

    Damu'Khonde has offered to end the war in the exchange for 0.00 ISK. Click here to respond to their offer.

    1. It served as a catalyst for the diplomatic negotiations that took place, and will serve from now on as historical material. Not quite "useless jabber".

  17. So, Damu'Khonde writes this post. Then the day after surrenders the war. Then begins to snipe fellow militia members in Raa and elsewhere.

    Hypocritical bullsh*

    1. War ended when it had to, no more, no less. I was surprised by Feanos' diplomatic maneuvering.

      But... sniping fellow militia members? Who did this, and when?